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	<title>Comments on: Software companies finding better, cheaper employees outside of Pakistan</title>
	<atom:link href="http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/</link>
	<description>Coffee Sessions for the Industry!</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:06:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Muhammad Omer</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-169511</link>
		<dc:creator>Muhammad Omer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-169511</guid>
		<description>I think the debate above has been great (minus the emotional diversions) in identifying the hard financial realities of most companies. I&#039;ve recently setup a company to try to see if we can address all these issues:
http://www.alliedc.com/careers/OurDifferentiator.aspx gives a quick overview. Its a non-profit (not an NGO) where people get to keep everything they earn. 

Companies quite consciously abstract people from the realities of the business (for whatever stupid reasons). They also create structures that create strong role definitions and discourage movement (continuity is easier). Most importantly though, these abstractions HIDE fiscal inefficiencies. People learn ways to lazy around all day long without the timesheets catching them, they mooch up their manager to get a better promotion in annual evals. The funny thing is, its not good for the manager, and its not good for the employee. Yet both are forced into a system that makes it believe it is.

My basic premis (and I&#039;ve seen it work over the 8 years I have worked here) is that most companies fail to provide a CAUSAL work environment. i.e. people don&#039;t know or understand what their salary has to do with what they do. 
- what does a manager take from &quot;your&quot; salary because you can&#039;t understand the customer? 
- if the project is a few weeks late &#039;because of the client&#039;, how does that impact your salary? 
- i am a .net developer but I have no clue what that is worth for the customer. why does the open source guy make more (or less)? 

Our model is simple: The company keeps nothing. you keep what you earn. You build a safety buffer for yourself first and then whatever you make, is yours. http://www.alliedc.com/careers/HowDoesItWork.aspx shows a scenario. This, very direct and causal relationship gives you constant feedback on what financial implications of &quot;what you do&quot; are. This takes care of the motivation to change. Pretty soon, people are fairly clear about what they need to do to improve their salaries. 
A parallel training portal (still work in progress) will help people learn these skills (like basic managerial skills, communication skills, sales etc.).Feedback is always welcome since we are doing it to change the way industry works here, not to make money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the debate above has been great (minus the emotional diversions) in identifying the hard financial realities of most companies. I&#8217;ve recently setup a company to try to see if we can address all these issues:<br />
<a href="http://www.alliedc.com/careers/OurDifferentiator.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.alliedc.com/careers/OurDifferentiator.aspx</a> gives a quick overview. Its a non-profit (not an NGO) where people get to keep everything they earn. </p>
<p>Companies quite consciously abstract people from the realities of the business (for whatever stupid reasons). They also create structures that create strong role definitions and discourage movement (continuity is easier). Most importantly though, these abstractions HIDE fiscal inefficiencies. People learn ways to lazy around all day long without the timesheets catching them, they mooch up their manager to get a better promotion in annual evals. The funny thing is, its not good for the manager, and its not good for the employee. Yet both are forced into a system that makes it believe it is.</p>
<p>My basic premis (and I&#8217;ve seen it work over the 8 years I have worked here) is that most companies fail to provide a CAUSAL work environment. i.e. people don&#8217;t know or understand what their salary has to do with what they do.<br />
- what does a manager take from &#8220;your&#8221; salary because you can&#8217;t understand the customer?<br />
- if the project is a few weeks late &#8216;because of the client&#8217;, how does that impact your salary?<br />
- i am a .net developer but I have no clue what that is worth for the customer. why does the open source guy make more (or less)? </p>
<p>Our model is simple: The company keeps nothing. you keep what you earn. You build a safety buffer for yourself first and then whatever you make, is yours. <a href="http://www.alliedc.com/careers/HowDoesItWork.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.alliedc.com/careers/HowDoesItWork.aspx</a> shows a scenario. This, very direct and causal relationship gives you constant feedback on what financial implications of &#8220;what you do&#8221; are. This takes care of the motivation to change. Pretty soon, people are fairly clear about what they need to do to improve their salaries.<br />
A parallel training portal (still work in progress) will help people learn these skills (like basic managerial skills, communication skills, sales etc.).Feedback is always welcome since we are doing it to change the way industry works here, not to make money.</p>
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		<title>By: chakar</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-82638</link>
		<dc:creator>chakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 06:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-82638</guid>
		<description>is it true that Si3 is now going through a property scandal in Bhawalpur</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is it true that Si3 is now going through a property scandal in Bhawalpur</p>
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		<title>By: What hitech Entrepreneurs can learn from a Sabzi Waala : Green &#38; White</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1569</link>
		<dc:creator>What hitech Entrepreneurs can learn from a Sabzi Waala : Green &#38; White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1569</guid>
		<description>[...] in their operations. I always offer to help them &#8212; often for free &#8212; but typically get smug answers about how no one but them would know how to run a PHP development [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in their operations. I always offer to help them &#8212; often for free &#8212; but typically get smug answers about how no one but them would know how to run a PHP development [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ghalia</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1439</link>
		<dc:creator>Ghalia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1439</guid>
		<description>We should start to look within Pakistan, as the potential of rural youth is yet to be explored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should start to look within Pakistan, as the potential of rural youth is yet to be explored.</p>
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		<title>By: Qazi</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1435</link>
		<dc:creator>Qazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1435</guid>
		<description>excellent ideas Razzaque. this is the kind of interest that will build this site and our industry as a well integrated one. I will definitely write some thing up on this. keep these good ideas coming</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent ideas Razzaque. this is the kind of interest that will build this site and our industry as a well integrated one. I will definitely write some thing up on this. keep these good ideas coming</p>
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		<title>By: Muhammad Asif Razzaque</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1408</link>
		<dc:creator>Muhammad Asif Razzaque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1408</guid>
		<description>Also a suggestion for taking lessons learnt back to work place.

At a mutually agreed juncture in any important/widely participated thread there may be a concluding post jotting down the main few conclusions drawn from the discussion.

This should greatly enhance the value of a thread. Will especially be meaningful for lesser experienced/industry outsiders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also a suggestion for taking lessons learnt back to work place.</p>
<p>At a mutually agreed juncture in any important/widely participated thread there may be a concluding post jotting down the main few conclusions drawn from the discussion.</p>
<p>This should greatly enhance the value of a thread. Will especially be meaningful for lesser experienced/industry outsiders.</p>
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		<title>By: Muhammad Asif Razzaque</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1407</link>
		<dc:creator>Muhammad Asif Razzaque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1407</guid>
		<description>OPTIMAL DESIGN TEMPLATE
=======================

An interesting fact finding discussion :-)

I have a question:

What is the &quot;Optimal Design Template&quot; for a software company in Pakistan to survive and compete?

Ofcourse anyone may comment on any aspect but I would especially like to hear as requested under:

1. On &quot;Financial Model&quot; from Ali
2. On &quot;HR Model&quot; from Qazi
3. On &quot;Product Design/R&amp;D&quot; from Osama</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OPTIMAL DESIGN TEMPLATE<br />
=======================</p>
<p>An interesting fact finding discussion <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I have a question:</p>
<p>What is the &#8220;Optimal Design Template&#8221; for a software company in Pakistan to survive and compete?</p>
<p>Ofcourse anyone may comment on any aspect but I would especially like to hear as requested under:</p>
<p>1. On &#8220;Financial Model&#8221; from Ali<br />
2. On &#8220;HR Model&#8221; from Qazi<br />
3. On &#8220;Product Design/R&amp;D&#8221; from Osama</p>
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		<title>By: Qazi</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1389</link>
		<dc:creator>Qazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1389</guid>
		<description>you are evil ;) thanks its clearer now</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you are evil <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  thanks its clearer now</p>
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		<title>By: Ali</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1387</link>
		<dc:creator>Ali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1387</guid>
		<description>What I meant was that one engineer won&#039;t make a difference to me :), even two engineers won&#039;t make a difference or three or four or five!:) What I can do is, I can wait and then hire all your ten employees when you reach that number :). Rest assured at this point in time, you are burning cash to get some bootstrap startup. For me, I have incoming cash revenue e.g, I may be making $2500 / engineer so rest assured if i feel like it I can pay the same engineer $2000 :) It will make my operational costs go up BUT will make you lose 10 employees your 100% of the man-power!

So the point is, as a startup it&#039;s not easy for you to attract people from established firms. Firstly you have to attract them with higher salaries because they won&#039;t know your name and won&#039;t know how stable you are so you have to give them financial incentives. 
Secondly, for a startup it&#039;s always more expensive to get good people. A lot of big companies like techlogix, they also play on their name and the stability attached with it.. and ofcourse the brand name. Lots of people choose from employers for the brand name rather than the salary (e.g., IBM would offer starting 25k or something, but then you&#039;d be working at IBM!). 

Yes things like this do disrupt your budget if you start in a salary-war with your competitor. However, if your processes are right (as per my earlier post) you simply won&#039;t care if one of your engineers leave. You&#039;ll replace him as quickly as he leaves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I meant was that one engineer won&#8217;t make a difference to me <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> , even two engineers won&#8217;t make a difference or three or four or five!:) What I can do is, I can wait and then hire all your ten employees when you reach that number <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> . Rest assured at this point in time, you are burning cash to get some bootstrap startup. For me, I have incoming cash revenue e.g, I may be making $2500 / engineer so rest assured if i feel like it I can pay the same engineer $2000 <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  It will make my operational costs go up BUT will make you lose 10 employees your 100% of the man-power!</p>
<p>So the point is, as a startup it&#8217;s not easy for you to attract people from established firms. Firstly you have to attract them with higher salaries because they won&#8217;t know your name and won&#8217;t know how stable you are so you have to give them financial incentives.<br />
Secondly, for a startup it&#8217;s always more expensive to get good people. A lot of big companies like techlogix, they also play on their name and the stability attached with it.. and ofcourse the brand name. Lots of people choose from employers for the brand name rather than the salary (e.g., IBM would offer starting 25k or something, but then you&#8217;d be working at IBM!). </p>
<p>Yes things like this do disrupt your budget if you start in a salary-war with your competitor. However, if your processes are right (as per my earlier post) you simply won&#8217;t care if one of your engineers leave. You&#8217;ll replace him as quickly as he leaves.</p>
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		<title>By: Qazi</title>
		<link>http://greenwhite.org/blog/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-1385</link>
		<dc:creator>Qazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenwhite.org/2007/06/06/software-companies-finding-better-cheaper-employees-outside-of-pakistan/#comment-1385</guid>
		<description>Ali, i don&#039;t know the workings of business, as you are in a better postion to comment on that. but lets say i am a startup and have funds to start a business i have no running cost and i can invest on human resource, now you are a established firm who is already doing business, have 50 engineers. now some one comes and pays one of your engineer a significant difference in pay lets say 30k now he has no running cost. paying that individual 30k plus will make your operational cost go up, will it not disrupt your planning of budget profit etc?
just trying to get a piece of you mind :) maybe i might run a business some day ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ali, i don&#8217;t know the workings of business, as you are in a better postion to comment on that. but lets say i am a startup and have funds to start a business i have no running cost and i can invest on human resource, now you are a established firm who is already doing business, have 50 engineers. now some one comes and pays one of your engineer a significant difference in pay lets say 30k now he has no running cost. paying that individual 30k plus will make your operational cost go up, will it not disrupt your planning of budget profit etc?<br />
just trying to get a piece of you mind <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  maybe i might run a business some day <img src='http://greenwhite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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