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I’m writing this entry from Fast NU Lahore Job Fair and lets not even go there about the fair, that’s a completely separate entry.
I have interviewed about 30 or so students, all of them soon to be graduated in their respective fields like IT, HR, Marketing, Telecom engineering etc. When you ask them their expectation about salary, the uniform response is:
Question: What are your salary expectations?
Answer: It should be at least 25k +
Question: Why 25k, how you came about this figure?
Answer: Sir, I have spent X amount on my education and now have a BS / MBA degree in so and so field. And I think this starting salary would only compensate for the cost I have spent on my education.
Question: You understand that initially, any company be it my own or my clients, they would need to spend some time on your training to make you productive. Do you think it would be wise for any company to pay Rs. 25k to an employee who is going to perform 3~6 months after this training period?
Answer: Sir, XYZ bank is paying Rs. X to their MTO’s, then why we should not be benefited of the package?
When you start a dialogue with them about their expectations and the current market situation; they do realize the reality but then 25k rules ☺
How this happened? How the students have defined 25K, 30K or 35K as a benchmark for a starting MTO level position? Let’s discuss and is this a right conclusion from the students?
| Written by Salman Munir on 04/21/08 in HR & Mgmt |
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April 21st, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Well, basically i believe its been asked because its not unrealistic.
When looking from the end of a job seeker, they’re hearing about their peers being inducted into organizations at 20-50k starting. That’s because many of us have a tendency to overstate our payscale to our peers.
On three occasions, i’ve been led to believe that my friends were at jobs paying almost twice as what i was getting (for the sake of argument, lets say i was getting 15 and they were getting 30k). A couple of years later, the same person told me that they had switched to XYZ company because the pay was so much better.
I assumed, given that previously they were on 30k, that right now they must be getting 35k alteast, but when i asked, i was told.. “yea, now im getting 28!! (with a triumphant laugh).
and this scenario has been repeated over the years quite a few times.
lately i’ve realized though, people dont normally tell their salary, but their package, in which they include all kinds of things.
my two cents
April 21st, 2008 at 3:41 pm
I don’t really understand the reason for this question.
I feel all students need to evaluate themselves and their priorities before stating their expected starting salary. Which does not mean 25k is a reasonable starting.
Two rules that rule this question are
1. “Don’t sell yourself short, start a little above so that they can come up a little and you can come down a little.”
2. “Don’t be under confident. A low starting salary means you are not confident of the responsibility you can handle.”
There is no such thing as “market value” for a graduate. Yes, certain professions have a certain bucket of salaries, but every candidate is different for the market.
Having that said, comparing one’s stated starting salary should NEVER be a standard of measuring what you need and why. Especially to that of other professions.
25K is a bullshit salary and fresh graduate cant even afford decent lifestyle on this pay. Come on, ppl (employers)!
April 21st, 2008 at 3:54 pm
By Mansoor’s logic, people who are stating 25k as expected means their friends are getting the same and lying at the same time about it - which means in actuality they are getting 12.5.
I don’t think it is a case of miscommunication, because for my group of friends I know who is what and how they will sell their expertise.
I think it’s the nature of work people get to do at such companies. The companies aren’t able to create an adhesive for these skilled people to stick around. Which means they will naturally leave for greener pastures and rightfully so. When the candidate knows he will leave in a few years time, he is willing to start from such a low starting and just sit around and ‘gain experience.’
April 21st, 2008 at 5:00 pm
well just to add my experience in this pool, i start my career with 5k where my frds were getting 12k then at same job i got the jump to 10k and my same frd got jump to 15k now i have got 25k and offers i m getting for my job is 40k (u must be thinking i m stupid enough to be at 25k rather then i can move out and get 40k .. per i have different views to it… ) and same frd is getting 20k so who is better me or him…
my question is does the nature of the job creates the market value or its the responsibility that creates the market value.
April 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Shaitaan: lovely perspective! i’ve myself gone through somewhat of a similar situation.
After being a fresher, and in the market for a couple of years, you are almost automatically targeted for new positions if you have the credibility to back it up (whether it be in the same company or a different one).
However, when you are a fresher, the rules are obviously different…
April 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm
p.s. i also started out at 5k :p
April 21st, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Another problem you might want to write about is why would a skilled graduate (who can very much act on his/her own) not chose to work remotely for a company that isn’t in Pakistan, instead of working locally?
They pay at least 3-5 times more, usually.
April 21st, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Shaitaan, try considering the fact that your friend has saved and made hell lot more than you in the time you managed to reach 25K. More over, it might be time he hits out for an MBA or a management oriented MS and jump to 60K+ salaries.
Please don’t tell people to start out at 5K! What? You guys don’t have any self-esteem?
April 21st, 2008 at 8:45 pm
If I were a fresh graduate and I were told that the employer will have to spend resources to train me, then I would tell them that it is none of my problems. Employers always train their staff in the core values and culture of the business. Also, employers in Pakistan have totally failed to establish a feedback cycle with the universities who are churning out fresh graduates like clockwork.
As an academician, I try hard to inculcate the kind of corporate values that fresh graduates will need to succeed. But on the other hand, I also emphasize the value of entrepreneurship and following a passion. If they have to fail, then its better to fail early.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Demand & supply curve ; equillibrium point
Equity theory: comparing with peers;
I absolutely see no problem in setting benchmark of 25-30 K. Because, market is offering this salary.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:38 am
I would like to re-emphasize some points already raised and have issue with some other points.
Strongly Agree:
a. Overstating Salary: Common Problem, happens everywhere. I know a guy, who told his salary was 120K to one guy and 170K to the other. Same Company, same position. Another inflated his salary by 12K and gave his class mate ulcers due to envy. A LUMS Alumni told me that a fresh LUMS MBA gets 60K, while a LUMS Prof said that a fresh MBA asks for 100K min. Now the alumni (MBA) used to work for Mobilink at around 200K and had around 10 years of experience (he had worked abroad also). You tell me, who is correct?
b. The total package does count and should be taken in consideration. Most times, you can more in kind than in cash. e.g. Provident Fund, Petrol, Phone Bills etc So measure the complete package. Even you are sent on a training, even that is an investment in you. Appreciate it.
Disagree:
a. You DONOT have a right to a high salary. It is a privilage. A high salary is given to people with connections, a big degree (now even LUMS is not enough - UPENN is common now). If you don’t have a degree from a name Institute, then please don’t knock on this door. Even a name degree might not be enough to get you a good salary. I have a class fellow, who is a GIII Officer in a Provincial Bank, another is AVP in SCB.
b. If you dont have the skills to deliver and then have an attitude issue also, then please go away. I would rather spend time on someone, who works hard rather on someone who needs step by step guidance and even then thinks life owes him.
c. If the employees have not received a feedback system, then the Universities have also not tried anything. Was told by my professor that quote, “they gave us an education and that is enough” end quote.
I would request all you fresh graduates to consider the following before demanding a salary:
a. Salary on Offer
b. Perks (Medical, Provident, Utilities, Petrol etc)
c. Environment: Friendly, bureaucratic, dynamic etc
d. Exposure & Growth (Future Prospects). How many people do you meet? What doors would this job open for you in future etc?
e. No more than 3 years in one Organization and not less than 1 year in an organization
f. What kind of Boss are you getting. If he is a dynamic person, then the Company would have a nice future. You will learn from the Guy and when he jumps, he will take you with him or at least have you adjusted somewhere better.
A friend of mine started at 8, went up to 12, then 22, from there went to Afghanistan at around 200K and is now in Dubai making mega bucks.
Moral: Invest in yourself by doing hard time, the first 2-3 years and then you would be in easy street.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:25 am
Kamran, I see no problem in over-stating your salary in an interview since it’s only in the favor of the candidate that they know you want a good salary.
A good salary does not mean the person has an attitude problem… he might, but if we are down to guessing and alleging, then it might also be his ambition to match his performance and dedication against the salary he is being paid.
I don’t think recruiters go for ‘name’ institutes anymore especially at entry level jobs. They are quite content at working with 5 DB experts on Rs. 5K a month (OMG!) than one programmer on 20K. The reason people from ‘name’ institutes go for higher salaries is because they bring with them the grooming and the culture that is not found in the ‘not so name’ institutes. Not only that, they also bring with them the ability to dynamically address problems and thinking creatively. (I am not advertising my lot by any means, but the tools learnt through experience at a ‘name’ institute will never be garnered at a ‘not so name’ institute.) Ever wondered why Harvard MBAs are the most regarded in the world as compared to those of Wharton, Sloan, or Yale?
Does it matter? Yes, it does. But then again, employers in Pakistan don’t have much ambition and they make do with mass produced IT personnel rather than a well-spoken, properly dressed one from an expensive institute asking for a little more.
The problem with stating the Rs. 25K is that the employer too will ALWAYS understate the salary they have on offer. They will say we pay 20K or 19K to people we hire on this position. Same with high-level jobs no matter how high you climb. So it is always safer to over-state than to compromise on a lousy salary with a lousy job.
Which brings me to the last point. The IT and Software industry in Pakistan might have seen a small boom but it was only with the setting up of off-shore development offices where local talent is milked for projects and products sold abroad. There is no concept of medical, insurance, perks, fuel, mobile in the Software market, honestly. Stop dreaming. And companies that do give any such thing to their employee are only doing it for saving-grace and to match competitors. Enrty level employees do not even get the leftovers from the company lunch.
This is a serious issue that needs to looked upon by the state and the industry. I already know of people who haven’t opted to work in Pakistan and waited a year to get into a Masters program and then come back or stay abroad to work.
From savings point of view, the person who opted to go for the Master’s degree benefited more than someone who labored 2 whole years on 25K or 35K jobs and didn’t save a dime (unless your dad owns the company.)
The word ‘brain drain’ has a meaning and place in our society…
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:51 am
Kamran, I am sorry I couldn’t address all of the points you made in that comment so I’ll just jump to one.
When you say that the universities have done nothing about giving feedback to the employers, I think it is an opportunity for the industry to lose the chance to connect with the institute and ask them for whatever they wish to see in a fresh graduate. The university has the freedom to employ those students itself and make them do ground breaking research work for similar salaries and make a name for themselves at the same time.
See, all this reinforced my stance about the lack of exciting stuff being done in the Pakistani Software and IT industry. Every other mushroom SWH is trying to make their own FaceBook or YouTube or Twitter or Blogger without giving innovation and research the slightest bit of time.
Honestly, if I was told in my Senior year that I would be working on an innovative product module that might get me an employment with the company in the end of this final year project, I would be more interested in doing it, not because I was getting job security, but because I might be at the verge of making history and a name for myself.
And last but not the least, from my personal experience and from what I hear from people, a good salary comes with a good position and a good position in a good company comes with pawa. You might want to call it a recommendation, but calling a cat a dog won’t change the fact that a dog remains a dog.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:16 am
Intriguing arguments. and i might say we can agree on both viewpoints. but kamran did raise poitns which are actually basic facts and trends. Most companies are looking for graduates from “small name institutes” reason being.well easy to push around and they ask for lesser salaries as compared to “big name institutes” but this in way means or implies that LUMS or recognized uni’s have lost their standing. Big name grads get the best programs and fast track career options and yes they get great packages. i know this from experience.
a word of advise to fresh grads would be that make sure not to be centric on salaries n perks. a professor once joked that fresh grads need to be gettin 100k salaries and all the perks n benefits(as i sed joked). most companies have an excellent learning environment but pay very less. try for that. huge salary packages will come your way if u establish yourself.start with a small salary n tough job.. eventually u will get offers that people brag about.
P.S:i agree there is a lot of this pawa thing goin on but trust me a a guy who doesn’t know wat to do with it can’t be at the top.pawa can only get u in! nothin else!n pawa benefits are always short lived!
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:16 am
There are more issues involved here with the salary then I can throw a stick at.
Coworkers and friends:
True, coworkers and friends throw the truth out the window when telling their salary. This is a cultural issue here as we want to out-due everyone else, we are in competition with everyone and we don’t want to feel inferior. Compare that to other countries, in which I mean US as thats where I’ve received my education and 6+ years of work experience, where people tell you what they make after taxes. The after-tax figure is always less and only shows the difference of our thinking. Here, it’s to prove yourself and/or to show off. There, it’s the reality of the matter. Everyone would like to make more, but don’t and that’s the reality.
Education:
A large factor indeed. Very critical. However, after the dot-com bubble burst I didn’t hear the stories of fresh B.S. Comp Sci students making $40K+ a year, being flown out to Cali, receiving cell and transport perks, etc… That all ended. In reality, this did still occur but no longer was it a widely occurring process unless you were in demand, from an elite “name institute” or had the required research field that the organization was heading for. So now a fresh B.S. would make around $25K-30K a year. Maybe even getting nothing more then a tech support job, like myself. But, and this is key, we proved our worth, we gained the experience necessary, showed that we were worthy of more responsibility and proved it.
Business:
Companies want someone to help them move ahead. You have a need from the company as they have from you. If you are a janitor, they need you to keep the place clean and you need them to pay you on time so you can feed your family. If you are a researcher then you normally have a desire to create something new and innovative and the company also wants you to do the same thing. Yes, you are doing it for money as well but normally the main thing for such people is the thrill of the hunt. Don’t get me started on the pure lack of REAL RESEARCH in Pakistan, the cut & paste ideology we practice isn’t research it’s called being a copy-cat. In my example, I proved to management that I was more versatile with my degree versus those who had not received this level of education. I proved that I could find solutions, think outside the box and be responsible. In the end… I moved ahead and gained valuable experience. Of course, nothing could have gotten me ready for heading into this country and working here, but being here has been a great experience as well.
My Point:
I feel that salary should commensurate with the responsibility level that you take up at your organization, given the level of experience and knowledge you bring to the table. Since the beginning of time, man has had to prove themselves to be worthy of the honors bestowed upon them. Be it the alpha cave man, knight of the round table, Prophet, king of the mountain or even a project manager for the next generation of wireless power supplies… it’s simple… Prove yourself.
Questions:
Why do all the fresh grads from Pakistan shy away from doing the actual work and just run after a salary package? Do you really think that making 50K a month fresh out of school is the only way you will make it through your career? Do you feel that this is truly justifiable against today’s economy and global practices? Do you even know what you parents made versus the inflation in today’s market value? Does the idea of performing work and proving yourself scare you or are you just thinking that you can skim through your career by brown-nosing?
So much to say, so little time…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:19 am
I think fresh grads should follow two simple rules:
1. Look for an employer that provide good opportunities for grooming(technical, communication, personality etc.)
2. Don’t forget rule # 1
Recently Graduated: If we talk about software industry only: what do you think fresh grads should prefer?
1. Get 30K and doing ONLY coding in a offshore development company where you don’t get a chance to know about requirements, project planning, communication with customers etc.
2. Get a less amount(say 20K) with opportunities to work and communicate with customers onsite/offsite, project planning etc.
I think using option # 2 one can quickly climb up to 40, 60 or even higher pays.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:45 pm
OK, first thing, are there two recent grads or just one?
Two, A Clarification. I am a Management Grad and not an IT Grad. The closest, I have been to IT is being Director (Inactive) of an IT Company and the neighbor of a CTO of a new startup, who is desperately looking for people.
Three, I would have no problem giving you a good salary, better than the market rate even. But if you lie to me, the offer would off the table. If I cannot trust you, I cannot work with you.
Four, Enlightened People go for one good employee, rather than 4 mediocre or even bad ones. Less aggro all around. Lets hope that, we get lots of enlightened people.
Five, the name Institute Wallahs bring with them exposure, agreed. But they also bring with them an attitude, which generally says, we don’t do this kind of work. We are —— This thing is not there in the US Grads, at least the ones, I have come across. The CTO, I am talking about is a UPenn Grad with 10 plus years of experience and still does coding etc, when he is needed. The point is, how many people here think, they deserve 25K rather than earning it. If you are irreplaceable, you would not have any problem being offered new jobs.
Six: All of you with a degree from a Small Institute, don’t worry. You will be pushed around, you will be given less salary, you will not have that much opportunity, you will make mistakes. BUT if you are competent, then you will rise, that is a guarantee.
Seven: No, now I need to go back to my work, as the Boss is giving dirty looks.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Kamran i couldn’t have summarised it better.
everything is ceterus peribus if you are hard working and wish to actually excel and learn. the rest will come along. this includes a good salary package and peace mind n etc. etc. but cribbing abt the fact that he got because of PAWA and look what he/she is earning wouldn’t help you. Experience in a good company/plus relevant to your line of work. will go miles.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Rashad / All,
Life is NOT fair. You will NOT get that brilliant job, because it will be given to PAWA Wallahs. People want to look good in front of the BOSS and PAWA Wallahs make you look good, so forget the great jobs / don’t apply to them.
However, decide do you want to get bitter about or get any job, which is offered to you for the time being at a low salary and make your way from there.
Finally, make a GREAT CV and prepare for the interview. A CV, which smells of kerosene and is not very share or well written goes straight to the dust bin.
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Thank you everyone for their detailed and extensive insights into the discussion.
We are missing “Employers” here. Anyone? Osama, would you please share what you think as an employer?
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Hmm - isnt what Kamran and others saying from the employers POV? I thought having more students’ perspectives would be useful - ultimately a debate would be most effective if we know people are able to learn from it
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
I can agree with most of what what said up there but there were two people who posed some questions so I’ll address them one by one.
@ Swordof1: As you said, you have studies and worked abroad so I presume you might be a little unfamiliar that the cost of living in Pakistan is much higher and it’s getting worse by the day. I think it’s an ethical responsibility of companies to provide for their employees not by looking at their profits or funds, but rather cosider the cost of living for those poor chaps.
The inflation today or 30 years ago is not the employee’s headache. It’s a simple conflict of interest case. Why should I consider how well the company is doing or whether they can pay me or not when I am not the stakeholder and the performance of the company does nothing for my hardwork and dedication on the job?
I am sure most people out there are willing to give their day and night to the company. So there is no question about their willingness to work hard.
The conditions and salaries of 40~50 years cannot be compared.
@ Atif Siddique: I don’t think there is any moral or ethical obligation from the company to ensure that they promote low salary employees faster than those of higher salary if they consider performance based evaluation.
What you are talking about is not the salary on offer but the nature of the work on offer; this choice will vary from person to person. Personally, I would like to get the 30K check and asked to labor over code and socialize online with the 20Mbit internet connection
But I am sure you will find people who are willing to work in the more managerial role of things on a small check.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:15 pm
i think both parties lie a bit about their salary expectations.. don’t tell me that the hiring company doesnt have a “lower” target and negotiation zone in their mind when they are making offers..
its part of the game.. why cry about it? so what if someone expects to get RS 25k as their starting salary.. don’t hire him if he is out of your budget.. if you think he is freaking talented that you just can’t do anything without him then i say pay him RS 30K coz now he is needed..
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 pm
intriguing discussion to say the least!
all of this reminds me of one important question, when does salary play a part in the whole hiring process?
for companies rejecting prospective employees on the outset, just because of salary expectations, i’d say its a failure of their hiring process.
for companies rejecting prospective employees at the very end of the process just because the candidate is asking for too much, is also a failure of the process.
let me explain.. the hiring process should be designed keeping two things in mind. effectiveness and efficiency. while very broad terms in themselves, my interpretation is as follows. effectiveness is matching the right candidate to the right requirements in a manner which benefits both the employer and employee. this means ensuring that expectations of both can be met, whether it be degrees, certifications, salary or experience. efficiency means that the hiring process should be able to quickly sort through the mountain of resume’s and select candidates which satisfy the above clause.
the disconnect happens when hiring department is looking for the cheapest talent, and discards worthwhile candidates because they just dont fit the (supposed) bill, while the management is looking for the best possible talent who’ll make more money for them.
i think i’m going around in circles now… will be back with something more clear.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:55 am
Interesting discussion. I am sure Osama will refrain from posting here since he owns a company himself
I think I can agree more with what Mansoor has had to say.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:10 am
OK, my view as a potential employee.
a. I have been selected and just before the job offer was made, it was rescinded, because my current salary was less than the budgeted salary (Salary not the complete package), they were prepared to offer. The job offer was withdrawn, despite the fact, that I was interested in working for the Company and the Complete package came to a higher amount than my current salary.
b. I have refused jobs, because I was not offered an amount at the higher end of the scale for that particular job. This despite the fact, that the hiring manager knew me and the fact that I had worked with the potential direct supervisor and he was actively pushing for my hiring made no difference.
c. Everyone would like to have a very high salary. I would. However, please see the complete package before accepting the offer. e.g. future potential of organization to grow (job security), your exposure (are you being a clerk or can you use this to become a CXO in future), the working environment (nice & comfortable place to work in), ability of Org to pay (would you get your salary on 1st or would you face delays) etc etc.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:07 am
kamran: from what you’re saying, i’d say its the perfect example of the breakdown of the process.
why was the offer withdrawn, when you were willing and the overall package was acceptable to you? i’d say either a) they didn’t understand you were happy with it, or b)you kept asking for higher just to test the waters and they got spooked or c)they found a better suiting candidate.
which one would you say happened and why?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:33 am
First, there were two jobs:
Job 1: They got scared off and didn’t follow up on my hints about my willingness. So answer is A here.
Job 2: I knew (had my sources), how much were they allowed to go and I wanted that last amount.
I KNEW that, they could not find a better candidate than me, because the Job Description matched my profile to a T. B & C both don’t work here.
Pay me, what you can pay, if you are happy with me, don’t go overboard / don’t exceed your budget.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:10 pm
If some fresh graduate is asking 25K than whats the problem , I am strong suppoter of “SKILL SET” and not “EXPERIENCE” , i repeat that experience is nothing only the right skill sets count and skills dont come with experience even a fresh graduate can have good skills and knowledge as compared to a 5yr exp guy than why every one here is shouting exp exp , please try to understand this point , if the graduate has good skill set and knowlwedge than pay him 25K , actually the EXPERIENCE buzz word represents our buracratic and slave mentality , the problem is that we cannot see any one earning more than us , shame on u pakistanis , u have this problem because u have been slaves from almost a 100 years in the hands of britishers , the author smunir has started this bull shit topic because he was unable to get 25K when he graduated because he did not have the right skill sets and knowledge and by the 25K is not a bug amount , so he is trying to take out his frustration on this blog , one more thing that many people here are talking about PAWA , yes all these people are right , in pakistan the one and most important factor which can over come any factor including the Ive League factor is to have connections with right people on right time in simple words PAWA of right people , i have seen graduates of BANGLAOW university without any shit knowledge and null experience getting 35K as there starting salaries in top multinationals in pakistan only because these guys had the right PAWA , just tell me that the famous Senator Nisar Memon was the Director of IBM Pakistan for almost 8 years , now what does nisar memon knows about software development or management or consulting but yes he wa sthe head of ibm pakistan for almost 8 years and thats only because of the pawa factor , conclusion which I want to make that in this strange country pakistan only two things can work either a big pawa or your luck(which is certainly in ALLAH’s hands) , sorry for saying a lot of truth and using some bad language but I think that not a single point which I have written is not true we all just cannot face it simple because we all r hypocrates(including me and I am te biggest one , OK) so dear all no hard feelings but also please no HYPOCRACY !!! most probably the moderator is going to delete this comment !!!
April 24th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Mr. Voice from Dawn:
Salman Munir helps to run three companies so believe me I really dont think he’s worried about money - but he does worry quite passionately about aligning employee / employer expectations.
I didnt moderate this comment but I will moderate or edit it if Salman asks me to - but the important thing Mr.Voice is to recognize that Salman started a very very healthy discussion on the topic - one which is honestly making me respect both sides of the argument.
You might disagree with one point of view Mr.Voice but there’s a healthy way of getting that point across and personal attacks arent going to help you gain any credibility towards your argument.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Remember your point of view is YOUR POINT OF VIEW - if you truly want to be a “voice of the soil” respect everyone’s voice.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:40 am
As a fellow professional, I request that you eitrher use your name, if you want to use such language or don’t use such language, while hiding under a pseudopodium.
I have never met Nisar Memon and do not wish too. However, I fail to understand, what his lack of knowledge about software has to do with his heading IBM Pakistan. If IBM Pakistan was continuously profitable, the people (especially software people) were happy and revenues kept going up, then what is wrong with it.
As far as Pawa is concerned, two things:
a. It is a fact of life, both here in Pakistan and EVERYWHERE else. Why shouldn’t I hire someone, whose sugar daddy is going to make my day in return for this favor??? I am No 1 and my benefit comes first.
b. My Generation (X) is now either Middle or Senior Management. If we don’t hire the person, we at least have a hand in short listing him / her. What we look for is a person, who can make us look good, who can help us complete projects etc. e.g. I have run internship programs for my Organization and I just keep in touch with approx 15% of the Interns and out of this 15%, I actively recommend 4-5% for jobs. Why, because I know they can deliver and right now my Generation needs capable juniors, if we are to keep going up. Right now, the Pawa factor is zero with us.
So what have you done to impress us lately? Have you done any great project / is it reflected on your CV? Have you worked with one of us and helped him/her look good? Did you make a good CV & had a great interview (answered all technical questions)?
We are desperate for good people and will pay top bucks also for competent people. But prove yourself before demanding the moon.
How would I know, if you have the right knowledge & skills set? You must have worked in that area as a student etc. You must have done some project as a class assignment or as a consultancy etc. If this is not experience / good selling point, than I don’t know what you need to land that dream job.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:11 am
Guys,
Is their any salary survey that is conducted in Pakistan? Monster has one for US and it helps. If we have some facts and figures then we can at least put the 25K figure aside
Come to comment on Salman. We went to same school different year though however I have always admire his abilities.
/Majid
April 24th, 2008 at 2:22 am
Wow! what a nice thread about real issues, though me being late a bit due to work load.
@Kamran and all others(employers)
You are right that asking for 25k as a starting salary is non-sense and I fully agree while comparing it to other jobs in Pakistan. But after having spent more than 2 years working as a software engg. I think, its better for a fresh grade to even ask for more, due to these reasons.
1- In almost all of the IT companies there is no such thing as perks or other benifits (though they will do mention some rubbish, but when time comes and you ask for it, they say hey man you didn’t read the hand book, it was like this n that etc.)
2- I am socially cut off and there is no such thing is grooming in these companies, coz they just want me to meet deadlines, thats it.
3- We all know that IT is almost male dominated society, so one other social interaction thingi is missing ( females
).
4- I can’t explain my status and job description to most of the socity like other jobs.
5- IT is highly risky job market and I can get fired any time even though I am trying hard and meeting deadlines but to other factors ( busts , projects canceled etc).
6- Like any other job, I want to enjoy life, have trips, trainings other functions etc. But it seems too distant in avg IT company of 20-30 persons.
So considering the above facts, the only thing that comes to rescue an IT guy is, the solid salary. If I am not working an avg. job or not spending a normal life, how the hell I deserve a normal staring salary?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Dear All,
Sadly enough we are always ‘asking’ for money and this is where we have come down to; No Vision of a nation that has proved to be one of the most talented in the world. I have worked with people across continents and have witnessed Pakistanis to be very intelligent & talented. But its just how we have been brought up without vision. We were taught that every good thing in life is impossible & we need money to survive puttig the entire nation in a fix and leading us to look for SHORTCUTS in life. Being fresh graduates we should look forward to work even with money and the reason why i say that is at this point important thing is knowledge. Putting money forward is the very basis of the paralysis we are suffering. Because millions earned will be spent and lost but knowledge will never go away and remember money is a by-product of success. Learn about the top people in the world. They WORKED! Sad but true my friends. Whereas, scrolling through our talented peoples mentality all we are looking for is money. and in case your life style is not afforded by the company you work for. Why dont you work up your own company. Its hard work? Would we want that? It is very much possible. Its about time that we as a nation should stop complaining and whining and protesting and should start earning it the right way because this way it will bring dignity, respect and everything else in the world.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Voice of the soil (VOS), as they say “I feel you!”
Actually, I was getting 5K in my first job and it was during my second semester at Uni. We were one hell of a team, with members from all over the country and then money was not the big issue. It was more about work and the things we can do. The last job I left was a lot more than that with an on going travel/stay in the finest & most expensive localities of Riyadh. I left that all and started up my own things. It’s a challenge to have your own start-ups but the experience is the best.
I’m a recruiter / headhunter and honestly the most important attribute I’m always deciphering in a CV is the “Skill Set” and the “Ability To Do” part. If a person has some particular Skill Set and can be aligned with the prospective job role, then years of experience can always be re-evaluated. But Skill Set and abilities are shaped up with experience and being in the field, not sitting looking for the perfect 25k salary.
Yes, the Pawa factor is definitely out there and plays an important role in the recruiting world. But at least not with recruiters ☺ We only get paid once we provide the services we were hired for, which is to find the right person for the particular job!
I’m not concluding this post from my end, as Osama said we are seeing people coming out and opening up – so let the roller coaster ride continue. Osama and Majid, thank you for your nice comments! I really appreciate them
April 24th, 2008 at 11:55 am
To be very objective abt something like this is kind of hard. i mean i agree everyone would wish for the flying start, the 40k salary, plus benefits. i know some frnds in MNC’s starting with that..but i know for a fact what they are capable of and that THEY DID ACTUALLY DESERVE IT.
And im sorry if i sound a bit off here but seriously i have only heard people complain abt pawa who are not very capable. Yes! there is pawa but it never lasts.
And tell me one thing, what if a bank hires a graduate on the terms(not disclosed ofcourse) that he will be bringing in his daddy’s millions with him to the bank?well to tell you honestly that IS HIS JOB! n that is what he is hired to do so i dont exactly see nethin wrong with that guy or bank.
i’d hire him right away.so honestly nobody gets to stay for free.there is no such thing as a free ride.
We need to be very clear abt wat we want, and more on wat we are capable of getting and deserve to.
I’m not saying that its not every1’s right to a bright start. but probably there are more deserving people out there.so stop cribbing and get in the competition.
If u can’t compete then ur probably right in ur own way to shout and scream abt this.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:59 am
N btw i think smunir started i very healthy discussion here so lets keep it that way .
April 24th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
About the salary question,
“Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer”
April 24th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
From a student’s point of view, I remember when I was in my final year of engineering me and my classmates decided we wont go for anything less than 8K. That was the trend back in 2002. So when ever I went for an interview I said 15K. Luckily I was offered a 12K job and same is what other fellas got.
From an employers point of view: I always hired people at better salaries os that they wont run away. Initially the candidate was chosen for a probation of 3 months and teh salary was to be raised after the completion of probation. Last company where I worked, I hired two NED students for 20K and raised their salary to 25K. Outcome is they are not going to move easily! For almost 1.5 year I have them and since then no salary raise has been given other than incentives on projects.
My way of working people may agree or disagree but I have always been succesful.
April 24th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Unaiza,
Would you please share with us “Incentives on projects”. How do you design them and whats the methodology behind them?
Adil, should I say “Lesson learnt!”
April 24th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I think when you have brand new grads, or even A-level students working at call centres for more than 25K plus at least 6K mobile balance plus health insurance for family etc., that does triggers people who are getting a proper Bachelors degree in Management or Computer Sciences to think of such a benchmark.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Drivers are getting 7K. I saw jobs posted on Rozee for 3-5K for tech positions.
Adjusted with inflation 25K is not much in year 2000 terms.
There are no COLA (cost of living adjustments) in our salaries.
- 15% goes to sales tax
- 20% ate up by inflation
- 2-10% by tax
- 12-25% ends up in commute, lunch.
Nothing much left to lead a fulfilling lives. Just living life of a hamsters is not good enough. Good thing we have freelancing sites now esp. oDesk, crappy salaries are being rewarded with crappy candidates.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
5 years from now, they would want 25% shares of the company for internship.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Job is an easy escape.
It’s time we should encourage people to start their small little startups.
If Steve Jobs/Bill G. worked for someone else, we would still be running Terminals and Command Prompts, and these graduates would have been damn happy with 3300 a year.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:19 am
It’s just plain downright sad ! - If you can’t offer at least 25K to the fresh grads in this year 2008 then it’s just sad that you contribute in demoralizing our youth. Also, I don’t know how many people will agree with this, but I have factual proof that thinking like this has contributed in the “brain drain” of our nation. We just have to stop thinking like “khatreez” and “buniya” PLEASE STOP